Monday, July 23, 2007

Asymmetrical devolution

The current constitutional situation in the UK is that we have a devolved Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly and Northern Ireland Assembly – all with differing powers. And we have a situation in England where there is no layer of elected government between local authorities and the Westminster Government. This is a situation of asymmetrical devolution and one that leads to questions such as the West Lothian Question being asked.

Asymmetrical devolution sounds an odd phrase and it does throw up logical difficulties – hence the West Lothian Question that Tam Dayell posed back in the 1970s. However, it is not either historically unique in British history and nor is such a phenomenon unique to the UK. Sometimes, looking outside our own country, to examples abroad, we can see why asymmetrical devolution might result and why, in some cases, it is a good compromise solution to the national question – a question and a problem that has proved so vexing in so many circumstances over the past couple of centuries.

Firstly, historically, asymmetrical devolution is nothing new to Britain. From 1922 to 1972, Britain had an asymmetrical devolution settlement – with an Assembly at Stormont that had devolved powers over Northern Ireland. In fact, its autonomy extended to matters like the franchise at local government elections (i.e. they were able to keep the ratepayer franchise when the rest of Britain moved to universal suffrage) – which is far more autonomy than any devolved assembly (rightly) has today. I find it interesting that, during that 50-year period, no one raised a ‘West Belfast’ question akin to the West Lothian one.

Secondly, looking abroad asymmetrical devolution does exist in a number of cases abroad. In Spain, Catalonia and the Basque country have more autonomy than other provinces of Spain. The Spanish Constitution enshrines the right of provinces to ask for and negotiate autonomy with the Centre – if they wish. Due to their history and to the existence of indigenous nationalist movements, Catalonia and the Basque country have done so. Other provinces have not felt the need to do so. Also, although it is mostly a uniform federal system, the US does have forms of asymmetrical devolution too. Washington DC does not have the autonomy a state does. It is under a form of direct rule by the federal government. Such is a case of asymmetrical devolution, as powers are vested in states which are not vested in the local government of Washington DC.

The Spanish case, to me, is a case where asymmetrical devolution has been designed to reach a much-needed compromise between the nationalist aspirations of local nationalists and the desire of the bulk of the people and of the country as a whole to maintain a degree of national unity. Autonomy which leaves local nationalists of a community satisfied can stop short of outright independence. Such autonomy enables a compromise between the nationalist aspirations of Catalan nationalism and the desire of Spanish nationalism to keep Spain united.

In Iraq, a similar idea is being mooted. The choice, surely, facing Iraq is not simply an independent Kurdish state or the lack of Kurdish autonomy that they had under the Ba’athist regime (and that Arab nationalists would like to reimpose on them). There is a third way – one that seems to be evolving – a compromise between Kurdish national aspirations and Arab nationalist ones. A Kurdistan Regional Government has been created. It is not the government of a sovereign state but it does have autonomy and the ability to handle education and other matters in the Kurdish language. This seems to be a reasonable compromise and one that a purely logical desire to have a ‘neat’ constitution would have rejected. Such a rejection would be dangerous, though, in an ethnically divided society as it seems to suggest that the only logical positions are the extreme ones of full independence or no special status for a national minority. I think that the wit and wisdom of human negotiations is such that we can move beyond such narrow parameters to a fuller compromise which meets as many of the aspirations of all parties as possible. Yes, no one will be 100% satisfied – but life’s not like that. You can’t please all of the people all of the time. A system that pleases most people mostly is good. It is better than one that causes polarisation.

So, perhaps I am meandering from the original point, I am talking of Iraq and Spain when I started off talking of the West Lothian Question. But the reason why I did so are to show that there are reasons why one part of a country develops a nationalist movement and others don’t. The political necessity is then to find a deal that can deal with legitimate national aspirations where they exist and can also compromise with the desire of others to keep the country united as one sovereign state. I think the devolution settlements for Scotland and Wales reflect that. Scottish nationalism and Welsh nationalism have been negotiated with while, at the same time, also reaching a deal that still keeps the UK as one country. This seems to me to be fine and part of the art of statecraft.

The West Lothian Question, of course, does in a sense pose a problem for this settlement. But it is only a problem when people think it is. I don’t think most people see it as one. And, if they do, then there can be a referendum on establishing an English Parliament.

However, I strongly suspect that there is not much demand for an English parliament as an immediate constitutional aim among voters in England. That is because they are more interested in bread-and-butter political issues than constitutional ones. Furthermore, of course, any desire to bring government closer to the people won’t really be met by an English parliament as it would (if based in London) be virtually as remote from the people of (say) Newcastle or Durham as the UK Parliament is. An interesting analogy can be drawn with the local government situation in the Netherlands. Holland was by far the biggest of the 7 historical provinces of the Netherlands. However, nowadays, it is 2 provinces for local government purposes – North Holland and South Holland – perhaps to reflect differences within the province and to prevent one unit from being too large within the system.

That is why some people, such as John Prescott, thought regional assemblies were a better idea. The experience, though, from the North-East referendum is that people do not see the need for them. The question remains an open one as to whether they feel the need for an England-wide Parliament.

There are many reasons, other than simply greater interest in sensible bread-and-butter political issues, why people in England might not feel the need for a separate parliament. The main one would be that, as the most populous nation of the UK, there is greater identification with UK-wide institutions than there is in the smaller nations. As such, people see the Westminster Parliament as their parliament in a way a lot of Scots didn’t in the 1980s and 1990s.

The question does remain, though, as to – if a government had a majority of seats UK-wide but not in England – whether it would have the legitimacy to pass legislation affecting England on matters which are devolved to Scotland or to Scotland and Wales. The answer is an Alice-in-the-Looking-Glass one, to my mind, it is that the government would have legitimacy as long as people felt it did . And, in most cases, their view on the propriety of the government passing one or another piece of England-only legislation at Westminster would depend on what that legislation was .

The discontent that many Scottish and Welsh voters felt for Tory government imposing policies on them was that these governments had (in the 1992-7) only 19 MPs representing Scottish and Welsh constituencies. The difference, because England is so much larger, is that no government could actually have a majority UK-wide without having a big minority of English seats. For example, at the next election, there are going to be (most probably) 650 seats in Parliament. Of those, 59 will be in Scotland, 40 in Wales and 18 in Northern Ireland. England will thus have 533 seats. It is conceivable that if they did very well in Scotland and Wales, Labour could get (say) 80 of the 99 seats there. However, to get a majority of seats UK-wide, they would have to then win a minimum of 245 seats in England (45.9% of English seats). Such a situation is the situation that those who most frequently invoke the West Lothian question fear. However, it can be seen from those figures that Labour’s share of English seats in such a situation would be far greater than the share of seats the Tories have had in Scotland since 1955 and in Wales since 1900.

In fact, any political divide in such a situation is more likely to be a left/right divide on the issues rather than a national one. After all, to get 245 seats in England, Labour would have had to win a majority of seats in the North-East and the North-West and quite a few in the Midlands and Greater London. It thus can’t be said to be ‘England’ expressing one view and ‘Scotland’ expressing another [especially as, due to its 4-party politics, Scotland gives Labour a smaller percentage of the popular vote than the North-East does]. Any geographical divide that might exist would be as much between the North and South of England as between England and the rest of the UK.

So, to sum up, I do not feel that the West Lothian Question poses any significant real political issues – although it does pose logical ones. The way to deal with it would be, indeed, to offer a referendum on an English Parliament and see what happens. Should there not be public demand for it, then it will not pass. There is no reason to give devolution to voters who do not wish it and who prefer powers to be exercised by the national government or by regional or local authorities rather than by an intermediate layer of government. That would in itself be undemocratic and be overriding their preference for the status quo .

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

The problem in England at the present time is the bias in the size of constituencies. The largest party in number of votes cast at the last election was the Tories, yet Labour still had a substantial majority. Sort that out and the "West Lothian" problem becomes a major issue.
I for one object to Gordon Brown blurring the distinction between Britain and England, frequently referring to both England and the UK as "the country".
His personal "passion" for education must remain unfulfilled in his own constituency as he devolved it.

Anonymous said...

I do not feel that the West Lothian Question poses any significant real political issues.

So, you think it is okay that scottish and welsh mps can vote on issues that effect England and England only? You think it is okay that there
isnt one English
member of either the scotch parliament or welsh assembly?
In that case, you don't believe in democracy, equality for English folks or English values.


Any geographical divide that might exist would be as much between the North and South of England as between England and the rest of the UK.

"Geographical divide"? Ha! ha! That's old and we've rumbled that one. Time for new myths isn't it? And anyway, this has nothing to do with the
English nation choosing what is best for itself does it?


The question does remain, if a government had a majority of seats UK-wide but
not in England – whether it would have the legitimacy to pass legislation affecting England on
matters which are devolved to Scotland or to Scotland and Wales.

"...a government"? What govt?
Gordon Brown should not be PM as he doesnt have a mandate in England. He has no legitimacy at all. How many votes did New labour get in England recently?
They dont have a mandate to govern England.


There are many reasons, other than simply greater interest in sensible bread-and-butter political issues,
why people in England might not feel the need for a separate parliament.


The English nation do want their own parliament. Several polls have proven this.



The main one would be that, as the most populous nation of the UK, there is greater identification with
UK-wide institutions than there is in the smaller nations.
As such, people see the Westminster Parliament as their parliament.

So because there are more English than say, jocks, the English "identify" with uk institutions rather than English ones?
What utter rubbish.
The Westminster parliament WAS the English parliament; but it isn't at the moment. Not with all those foreigners in it it isn't.


I strongly suspect that there is not much demand for an English parliament as an
immediate constitutional aim among voters in England.

I strongly suspect you are talking hogwash. Recent polls certainly do prove that the English nation wants their own english parliament!
Why lie about the facts?


That is because they are more interested in bread-and-butter political issues than constitutional ones.

Rubbish!


Furthermore, of course, any desire
to bring government closer to the people won’t really be met by an English parliament as it would
(if based in London) be virtually as remote from the people of (say) Newcastle or Durham as the UK
Parliament is.

Not this old crap again. New abour has had how long to bring govt closer to the English people? How long? Tell me.
The new English parliament may well be in the centre of England. That is for the English to decide.


An interesting analogy can be drawn with the local government situation in the Netherlands.
Holland was by far the biggest of the 7 historical provinces of the Netherlands. However, nowadays, it is 2
provinces for local government purposes – North Holland and South Holland – perhaps to reflect differences
within the province and to prevent one unit from being too large within the system.

Ha! ha! This has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of the English being denied their self determination. None at all.
"perhaps to reflect differences"? Ha! ha!


That is why some people, such as John Prescott, thought regional assemblies were a better idea.


Oh stop lying. Nasty Prescott just did what the EUrolanders wanted him to do. Get a grip.

The experience,
though, from the North-East referendum is that people do not see the need for them.

We wont be fobbed off with imposd regional asses no. We are only going to settle for an English parliament.


The question remains an open one as to whether they feel the need for an England-wide Parliament.

No it doesn't! Recent polls have proven that the English people want their own parliament.
Why lie about the facts?


looking abroad asymmetrical devolution does exist in a number of cases abroad.
In Spain, Catalonia and the Basque country have more autonomy than other provinces of Spain.
The Spanish Constitution enshrines the right of provinces to ask for and negotiate autonomy
with the Centre – if they wish. Due to their history and to the existence of indigenous nationalist movements, Catalonia and the Basque
country have done so. Other provinces have not felt the need to do so.

This is exactly what scotch/welch new labour are REFUSING to do with regard to England! Every English person notes that they DID rush to do it
for scotland wales though! New labour are anti English fascists.


The Spanish case, to me, is a case where asymmetrical devolution has been designed to reach a
much-needed compromise between the nationalist aspirations of local nationalists and the desire
of the bulk of the people and of the country as a whole to maintain a degree of national unity.

What bulk of people want to keep the uk together? NATIONAL UNITY? HA! HA! There is no uk national unity.



Autonomy which leaves local nationalists of a community satisfied can stop short of outright independence.

It is too late for that in the uk.


Such autonomy enables a compromise between the nationalist aspirations of Catalan nationalism and the desire
of Spanish nationalism to keep Spain united.

Oh did you not include the Basques because they are dying to leave "spain"? Ha! ha!


You can’t please all of the people all of the time. A system that pleases most people mostly is good.
It is better than one that causes polarisation.

Says who? You? "Most people mostly"? The English are most people in the UK. So you admit that what has happened in the UK isnt good then? ha! ha!
Polarisation? Ha! ha! So you dont think the UK is polarised either? Youre either blind to what has been going on in England since 1997 or you're deliberately
trying to avoid discussing facts!

The political necessity is then to find a deal that can deal with legitimate national aspirations where they exist and can also
compromise with the desire of others to keep the country united as one sovereign state.

Oh you dont say. Gordon Brown certainly isnt doing that.


I think the devolution settlements for
Scotland and Wales reflect that. Scottish nationalism and Welsh nationalism have been negotiated with while, at the same time,
also reaching a deal that still keeps the UK as one country. This seems to me to be fine and part of the art of statecraft.


Firstly, scotch and welch nationalism have not been negotiated with. They are merely using whatever mug they can to get what they want.
They are not going to stop until they achieve their aims. Are you aware of what you're spouting?

"This seems to me to be fine." So, you are fine with the English having no political representation? Well, I and millions of other English folks AREN'T!

Secondly, the Uk IS NOT one country. The Uk is a political construct and that is all. Their is no British language or British nation or British race.


The West Lothian Question, of course, does in a sense pose a problem for this settlement.

"Pose a problem'? It is more than just a problem. It is fascism in action!


But it is only a problem when people think it is.

Oh so you havent been reading all the newspaper articles on it then? Plenty of people think it's a BIG problem mate.


I don’t think most people see it as one.

"Most people"? How can you know?


And, if they do, then there can be a referendum on establishing an English Parliament.

Yeah and I suppose you hope anti English fascists can fiddle the voting via postal voting and voting machines during that referendum ah?

I take it you're happy living in a fascist police state then? Thats if you even live in England.
I doubt youre english to.

K2 said...

I think your citing of Spain as an example is interesting but the situations are not really analogous for the simple reason that the Spanish and people of Spain as opposed to the Catalans are represented by Spain. There is no political confusion between Spain and Spain. You might think this is simply a matter of symbols and titles but I think it is more important than people realise. In England healthy cultural and civic identities are crushed under the banner of the 'UK' and 'Britain' and 'Britishness'. Therefore there is the feeling (and I personally think it is real)that England has no voice in this current arrangement. Of course there should be a referendum on an EP but they will not give it to us because much like the European treaty they know only too well what the result will be.

K2 said...

I have to say also that John Prescott is hardly the most reliable person to negotiate with the forces of English nationalism seeing as he has said openly that he thinks England as a nation doesn't exist. He is of course Welsh and such statements are not exactly great 'statecraft' as you term it. There is strong local as well as national identity in England but it is not regional as the Nulab experiment in the NE showed and which even Tony Blair has recently admitted. It is adequately covered by the county and city system and it is for an English parliament to determine what powers may be devolved out to these local structures. The regional project is unwanted and undemocratic and GB has only scrapped the assemblies to rid himself of oppostion to his massively destructive house building programme for the SE which of coure will not affect his constituents one iota. His facist regional dream is alive and well and is now being channelled thorough his absurd 'regional' ministers and unelected undemocratic development quangos.

Vino S said...

Well, it seems my post has provoked some rather heated comment. Talk of a 'fascist' New Labour 'police state'!

I tend to find people resort to such rhetoric when they don't actually want to discuss an issue and prefer name-calling. As I said, logically, there should be a referendum on an English Parliament. I also said, and i would be interested to see a poll detailing people's views on this, that most people in England do not see the lack of a parliament as a major issue and are more fussed about bread-and-butter political issues (rightly) _because_ they see the UK Parliament as legitimate and see it as their parliament.

The constituency size issue is an interesting one. At the last election, more English constituencies elected Labour MPs than Tory ones - but the Tories got more votes. This is because of 2 factors - the low population of some safe Labour seats and the low turnout. Both meant that some Labour MPs got elected with 15-20,000 votes and some Tory MPs had to get 30,000+ to get elected. This will be lessened by the boundaries reorganisation [although there is no way of correcting for differential turnout between seats]. If people are concerned that the largest party in terms of votes has not got the largest number of seats in England, then that is a case for PR for Westminster elections. It is a logically separate issue from the issue of devolution [as the same thing happened in 1974 Feb, when Labour got more seats but less votes than the Tories].

Tony said...

Asymmetrical devolution sounds an odd phrase and it does throw up logical difficulties – hence the West Lothian Question that Tam Dayell posed back in the 1970s. However, it is not either historically unique in British history and nor is such a phenomenon unique to the UK. Sometimes, looking outside our own country, to examples abroad, we can see why asymmetrical devolution might result and why, in some cases, it is a good compromise solution to the national question – a question and a problem that has proved so vexing in so many circumstances over the past couple of centuries.

The problem here is your examples are all regional ones. You have not provided a single example of a country that does not have its own assembly or Parliament.

You have not provided a single example of a country that allows the representatives from other countries to determine the laws there without being subject to them in their own constituencies.

In England there is a democratic deficit that goes far beyond the regional matters you highlight, in Spain for example.

As for regional assemblies, the idea was to allow the UK government to centralise control even more over what happens in England at a time when devolution was giving more say to local people outside England. The two tier system (county and district) is supposed to provide local accountability and service the needs identified by local people, but it is forced to adopt legislation imposed by unelected and unaccountable bodies.

England is merely the cash cow that makes up for the lack of spending power in the devolved countries. England has no say over its own direction. It is also subjected to an unjust settlement that sees English tax receipts used to provide services and treatments in the devolved countries that are denied to English people on the basis of cost. Does that happen in the regional examples you gave? No.

Your argument is flawed and the situation is a rank injustice that must be corrected now.

Alfie said...

There you go. I was with you, reading your post with interest – and then you just had to say it, didn’t you?

You said that you didn’t believe there was much demand for an English Parliament because the English voters are more interested in bread and butter issues – I mean – how arrogant is that statement then?

It’s breathtaking, especially as England originated the modern model of democratic process. Especially as England was the first formal nation state in the world. Especially as England produced the Magna Carta, the first written charter in the world that put down in black and white the rights of the citizen and his relationship with the crown. Ironic that the Magna Carta has been copied virtually word for word across the world in other countries bills of rights (including the USA). Ironic that England is now less democratic than it was 1,200 years ago.

Recent polls have consistently shown that not far off 70% of English people canvassed said they were in favour of an English Parliament. Not much demand? What are you talking about!

7 out of 10 looks like a bit of a majority to me – especially as NuLabour have formed a government with a mandate from only around 22% of the UK adult population…

So why no referendum? Oh, that’s right, NuLabour don’t do referenda that they might just happen to lose, do they?…

Far better to suck on your pencil and thoughtfully wax lyrical that English people are too busy with their bread and butter issues to be bothered!!!!!

Don’t you know that NuLabour aren’t interested in true democracy? They know that England is by definition a conservative country. The only reason they rule at all is due to the claque of supine Labour MP poodles from Scotland and Wales who troop into the lobby to vote on Education, Health, Planning and Transport issues that simply do not affect them or their own constituents.

Forget EVoEL, and any other smoke and mirrors rubbish from so called blue sky thinkers - the restoration of an English Parliament is the only way to go. We need our own First Minister with our own Executive and our own cash. That First Minister would be answerable to the people of England – end of. It’s called DEMOCRACY.

As an illustration, do you think during the recent Yorkshire floods it would have taken 10 days for an English First Minister to get round to visit and pledge a pathetically small amount of money? Cos that’s how long it took Gordon Brown. And that’s how long it took the REGIONAL Minister, Caroline Flint to visit as well…. Mind you, Flint has no power – Brown has no interest – and NO MANDATE in England.

And if our United Kingdom is soooooooo important, how come Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland are all either wholly or partly run by Nationalist politicians?

Westminster spends over 70% of its time discussing English only issues. It’s nothing more than a flaccid talking shop. The solution is a federal UK with parliaments for all 4 countries. Failing that, then I’ll take independence – you cannot blackmail 50 million people into putting up with a totally undemocratic solution because the union is soooo important.

An English Parliament would be smaller, cheaper and more focused. There is simply no argument against it.

As I told the woman in our village who has just lost her husband to bone cancer because he couldn’t get access to a drug that is freely – for free available to all in Scotland, staying in the union is too high a price to pay.

And do you know what? In spite of all the bread and butter issues she had been thinking about, she really did have to agree that an English Parliament would have saved her husband’s life. Don’t you agree?

Yellow Swordfish said...

In my experience, most English people do not see the need for an English parliament.. until the asymmetrical nature of the current situation is explained to them. Then, they tend to be outraged. This is why, I believe, more recent polls do clearly show a high level of support for such a vote.

This government has been the master of spin and obfuscation over these issues - it has taken the media years to even start to report the true democratic deficit. But now the people of England are waking up and a strong, healthy nationalist movement is starting to take hold.

Vino S said...

Alfie/Tony, there is an analogy between Castile/rest of Spain and the Basques and Catalans - as there is also asymmetrical devolution there.

I would concede the point that the current system does create an anomaly for Scottish MPs. That's why i said in the post that the WLQ does cause a logical difficulty. However, it is also the case that the Scottish MPs are elected to serve in a soverign body - the House of Commons - which, under the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty has all powers which have not been devolved elsewhere. As such, as part of a corporate body, they play a (small) (only 59 out of 650) part of its decision-making.

Tony's rhetoric re his acquaintance's husband dying is phrased emotively. I would be surprised if you could prove someone would definitely survive an illness if they were in Scotland. Yes, you could argue per capita spending is higher in Scotland than in England. But it is also higher in the North-East. Poorer areas tend to have more public spending. Additionally, if you do disagree with the Barnett Formula then that is an issue that long pre-dates devolution [as Joel Barnett was Chief Secretary to the Treasury in the 1976-9 Callaghan government, long before devolution].

Vino S said...

A second point - re the issue of public demand for something.

Looking at the House of Lords issue - an issue where i favour an elected 2nd chamber - i think polls have shown most people favour that idea. That does not mean, though, that they prioritise it as a big issue. I think the same is true of the English Parliament. People can be in favour of something but, at the same time, it can also not be a major factor in their voting behaviour.

Re the claim that England is less democratic than 1200 yrs ago, I think that claim damages the credibility of the rest of your argument. Yes, Magna Carta implied some degree of parliamentary govt. But parliaments were not called regularly and they were only elected (if at all) by a tiny fraction of the population.

Another thing that puzzles me about some of the more dramatic rhetoric in this debate and the rather overblown attacks on the Labour government is that, when posting, no one seems to have mentioned the fact that 250+ MPs for English constituencies are Labour. If there is a particular Labour policy you dislike then it is normally not the case that it was _imposed_ by the Celtic fringe upon England. In fact, the majority of the Labour MPs who voted for any policy you care to name are representatives of English constituencies. There are 250+ English Labour MPs, only 46 in Scotland and about 30 in Wales.

Anonymous said...

Vino S said...


"Well, it seems my post has provoked some rather heated comment. Talk of a 'fascist' New Labour 'police state'!"


Yes and several other people are saying that same. look around the imternet. Oh,don't tell me they're all making it up.
Either that, or they're just plain mad/eccentric/conspiracy theorists.

http://prorev.com/2007/07/british-police-state.htm

http://www.policestateplanning.com/british_constitution.htm

http://pressesc.com/01181960826_uk_police_state

http://gizmonaut.net/bits/police_state.html

The Police stop and search people without the need to show that they have reasonable suspicion an offence is being committed
(under the power of the infamous Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000).

The Police have powers of arrest without warrant, which make all offences, no matter how trivial, into arrestable offences
(Section 110 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, came into force on 1st Jan 2006),
and allow the Police to take DNA, fingerprints and palm prints of all those arrested.

Omnipresent surveillance. Britain reportedly has 4.2 million public cameras, 20% of the world's CCTV, or one camera for every 14 people
– according to a director of photography, these are very good cameras,
high colour with good focus. Cameras trained on cars are equipped with automatic number plate recognition (ANPR).

Taking pictures, filming or even just drawing sketches of buildings is now often considered ‘hostile reconnaissance’ and
risks you being stopped and searched, or even arrested. (Many persons who were intimidated in such circumstances by the Police
emailed me, including one person who was arrested for ‘sketching pictures of the Southbank’ and another for taking a picture that
includes a petrol station and in 2006-08 an Iraqi was charged for filming Big Ben, the Houses of Parliament and the London Eye,
eventually found not guilty, to be put under a control order. On 14th May 2007, two students are arrested after taking snapshots of
Tower Bridge. Even my innocent doodles were construed by the Police as being a tube station plan.)
Filming or taking photographs of London tube stations without obtaining a permit in advance is illegal since July 2005

Saying or wearing the wrong words may get you arrested. The Encouragement of Terrorism section
of the Terrorism Act 2006 is so broad that it is likely to be an incursion on free speech.

Under the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order 2006 the Treasury can freeze the assets of whoever they designate.
They do not have to give any hard evidence. They can do so in secrecy. And they are above the law ('An action done under
this Schedule is not to be treated as a breach of any restriction imposed by statute or otherwise.')

There have been 60 Home Office bills in 10 years resulting in over 3,000 new offences. The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 - this Bill was
‘the 52nd Home Office Bill since the Government came to power in 1997’. (From 1997 to 2006, each year has seen an average of 2,685 new laws
– a 22% increase from the average over the previous 10 years.)

The UK is ranked the 23rd most democratic country and the 25th least surveilled one (worst ranking EU country).

In other words, we have no democracy
and are watched constantly. Well I know why were watched. The pricks are wetting
themselves that we're going to do something about the lack of democracy.

The Home Office, the Metropolitan Police and the Department of Health secretly established in October 2006, the London based Fixated
Threat Assessment Centre (FTAC) staffed by police and psychiatrists; they have the power to detain suspects indefinitely using mental health laws.

On 24 may 2007, the Secretary of State for the Home Department states that he is considering derogating from article 5
of the European Convention on Human Rights, which requires declaring a state of emergency.
On 1 june 2007, the Palace of Westminster and Portcullis House Site will be added to the sites
designated under Section 128 (offence of trespassing on designated site) of the SOCPA. Come June 2007,
attending an event in a Committee Room or meeting your MP in Portcullis House can land in you in jail for up to 51 weeks.
On 27 may 2007, the Home Office reveals it is examining a proposal to give powers to the police to stop and question people.
People refusing to give their names or explain what they were doing could be charged with obstructing the police and fined up to £5,000.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1400584,00.html

http://infowars.net/articles/april2006/170406watching.htm


Vino said:

"I tend to find people resort to such rhetoric when they don't actually want to discuss an issue and prefer name-calling.
As I said, logically, there should be a referendum on an English Parliament. I also said, and i would be interested to see a
poll detailing people's views on this, that most people in England do not see the lack of a parliament as a major issue and
are more fussed about bread-and-butter political issues (rightly) _because_ they see the UK Parliament as legitimate and see
it as their parliament."



Rhetoric? Name-calling? dont want to discuss the issue? These comments would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that it seems to
be you who are using them. I haven't seen one person call you anything much. But anyway, if the cap fits you must wear it!

You just can't seem to understand that we have effectively squashed your supposed argument about the English
not really wanting democracy and/or they aren't really interested in acquiring their own parliament. You either cannot understand , you're have too
much of an ego to admit you're completely incorrect and/or, you have an agenda. I think it's the latter!
Bread and butter issues? Ha! ha!

There are poll results on the English democrats
website that prove your ignorance. www.englishdemocrats.org.uk I s'pose you'll just state that polls don't count. Well,
you're right. They don't count to people who refuse to value other's opinions.


Vino said:

"...Scottish MPs are elected to serve in a soverign body - the House of Commons
- which, under the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty has all powers which have not been devolved elsewhere. As such, as part of a corporate
body, they play a (small) (only 59 out of 650) part of its decision-making."

"a small part"? Such as forcing through legislation that doesn't concern them you mean? That is not a small part. They enforced
legislaion on England that they voted AGAINST FOR SCOTLAND! A small part it wasn't!


Vino said:

"Tony's rhetoric re his acquaintance's husband dying is phrased emotively. I would be surprised if you could prove someone would definitely
survive an illness if they were in Scotland. Yes, you could argue per capita spending is higher in Scotland than in England. But it is also
higher in the North-East. Poorer areas tend to have more public spending. Additionally, if you do disagree with the Barnett Formula then
that is an issue that long pre-dates devolution [as Joel Barnett was Chief Secretary to the Treasury in the 1976-9 Callaghan government,
long before devolution]."


"phrased emotively"? Yes, people get emotional when they see their friend dying...UNNECCESSARILY! They get emotional when they see their friend
dying because of HIS NATIONALITY. They get livid when they see their friend dying because of the sheer greed, malice and vindictiveness
of some other nationality. That sort of thing leads to retribution on a very nasty scale. Which is why England has so many 1984 police state
cameras! Then again, cameras only work when they have a power supply. They're useless without it!

vino

"you could argue per capita spending is higher in Scotland than in England. But it is also
higher in the North-East"

We don't care if it's sky high in the NE of England. (I'll assume you mean north east of England) We don't care
if it's higher in that part of England. Higher than where anyway? You haven't specified.
Can't you type a coherant comment?

The Barnett formula? So what if it predates devolution? That has nothing to do with the present so what is your point?
It doesn't matter when it was invented. What matters is in the here and now it is still being used. It was only supposed to
be used for a small while. Their is no justification that you can come up with for the continuation of it's use. None whatsoever!



9:46 PM
Vino S said...
"A second point - re the issue of public demand for something.

Looking at the House of Lords issue - an issue where i favour an elected 2nd chamber - i think polls have shown most people favour that idea."


So now you want to bring up polls! I smell double standards.



"That does not mean, though, that they prioritise it as a big issue. I think the same is true of the English Parliament. People can be in favour
of something but, at the same time, it can also not be a major factor in their voting behaviour."

What is the point of this sentence? The same isnt true of an English parliament. Unless you think 70% is not enough!
New labour did
make the house of lords a big issue though. All that pathetic ranting about lords and upper class people. What a bunch of jokers.
All they have done is replace lords that will not vote for them with yes men who will pass anything for a price. New labour have made a joke
of the entire UK.


vino

"Another thing that puzzles me about some of the more dramatic rhetoric in this debate and the rather overblown attacks on the Labour government
is that, when posting, no one seems to have mentioned the fact that 250+ MPs for English constituencies are Labour. If there is a particular
Labour policy you dislike then it is normally not the case that it was _imposed_ by the Celtic fringe upon England. In fact, the majority of
the Labour MPs who voted for any policy you care to name are representatives of English constituencies. There are 250+ English Labour MPs,
only 46 in Scotland and about 30 in Wales.'


Iain Duncan Smith:
"Well, can the Prime Minister now [TELL THE HOUSE OF COMMONS] whether he intends to rely on
the votes of Scottish Labour MPs, even though top-up fees, like foundation hospitals, have been rejected by his own party in Scotland?"

All B*stard Blair could spout was this "magnificant" comment:

"I find it absolutely extraordinary that the right hon. Gentleman should say that Scottish and Welsh MPs are not able to vote on UK
legislation passed in this House"

What a liar. Those fascist scotch mps werent passing uk legislation; they were forcing policies on ENGLAND not the UK!
They should all hang
their filthy heads. As should anyone who thinks what they did was okay.

Idiot Blair went onto spout:

"This is the UK Parliament, and if he is saying that Scottish and Welsh MPs can no longer vote on English business, is it also
his position that, if devolution is up and running again in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland MPs cannot vote on it?"

Got it in one Blair! Only the English should vote on legislaion that effects England. And, before anyone objects to what I have
stated let me see them
make the comment that the scottish parliament, and welsh and NI assemblies should allow English members (they never have done yet)
AND allow them to vote through laws
that effect only scotland, wales and NI but not England. Of course no sane person is going to advocate it. It is obvious that it shouldn't be
allowed in England either.

Here's something amusing to end with.

Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth & Horncastle, Conservative)

"Since the Prime Minister [Blair] is so fond of apologising to
foreigners for the conduct of our long-dead ancestors,
will he now, particularly in view of the accumulated turbulence,
apologise to the British people for his own folly in leading us into the Iraq disaster?"



"The values of the New Labour Party are good Scottish values."
- Tony Blair MP Scottish Prime Minister
Scotland on Sunday

So, it was scottish values that led England (and the rest) into a war it did not want then. Thanks for admitting it Blair.

Vino S said...

Anonymous, talk of a police state I see as overblown. If people think our current situation where, yes, we have lost civil liberties is akin to a police state then they obviously haven't actually lived in one!

Re polls, I am happy to concede that I am wrong on matters relating to polls and that the English Democrats' are right. That doesn't change the issue of how people _prioritise_ the issue. As I said earlier, in the statement you seem to have wilfully misunderstood, people can say they favour something without it being a high priority for them. I think the evidence proving my view is the small amount of support the English Democrats seem to have. They are standing clearly on a pro-English-devolution platform and people do not seem to be that interested. By contrast, voters do seem to have an interest in voting for the SNP and Plaid Cymru - since they often poll 15-20% or more of the votes.

People also seem to be ignoring my last paragraph where I said that there is no point in devolution unless people demand it. Surely, the way to prove it would be if people were voting for the English Democrats - if the WLQ was important to them? I have always said that i would have no objection to a referendum on the question; but all I am saying [and there is no way of proving one way or another - bar the polls you refer to - unless we actually have one] that both turnout and the "Yes" vote in such a referendum would be quite low - for a variety of reasons. People might not feel the need for an extra layer of government; people might feel that it would be almost as remote as the current Westminster government for them; people might prefer devolution to traditional counties such as Yorkshire or Cornwall [such as Mebyon Kernow are asking for].

Terry said...

Partial devolution is threatening the Union. If you want a sure fire way to split the UK, just give three nations generous welfare provisions and get one nation to pay for it (and put up with a second class health/education service).

We urgently need to create a level playing field and the only way to do that is either
a) reverse the devolution process to pre-1998 levels
b) devolve power to the County Councils (or Regional Assemblies)
c) create a Parliament for England that matches the powers held by Hollyrood.

The first is untenable, the second is demonstrably unpopular (see North East referendum), so that leaves us with an English Parliament.

Vino S said...

Hi Terry,

Thanks for your comments. The one thing I would like to pick up on is what you said about the pre-1998 settlement being itself satisfactory.

One of (in my view) the best comments that Donald Dewar made on the WLQ was that the status quo was itself an anomaly as Scottish law [and of course Scotland has always had a separate legal system - one of the most memorable differences from ours is that a 'not proven' verdict can be reached in criminal cases rather than just a guilty or a not guilty one] was being made by a Parliament that had only 10% Scottish membership. Thus, the status quo itself created difficulties because of the separate legal system in Scotland.

Terry said...

Hi Vino, I agree that the status quo was unacceptable.

There was a need for power to be devolved from London to the easily identifiable regions of Britain. For example the industrial, modern south Wales is different from the rural, touristy north Wales. Scotland is far more diverse politically, economically and culturally than England. The Western Isles and the Highlands are Celtic in language and culture, quite distinct from the Lowlands who have more in common with London and Manchester than they do Skye or Lewis.

This Government however was panicked by the nationalists to the north and west. They decided to devolve power on national lines… the nation of Wales and the nation of Scotland.

If the union is to survive all citizens HAVE to be seen to be treated equally. We need to either unravel the nationalist devolution settlement (and establish pan-UK regional devolution ignoring national borders) or we complete the current process on national lines.

Unless we can stuff the nationalist genie back in the bottle and reverse 1998 (I’d vote for it) an English Parliament is the ONLY fair solution.

Vino S said...

Hi Terry,

Its good to see we both agree the pre-1998 situation itself was problematic. I think many commentators seem to assume that the British constitution was logical before 1998, which of course it never has been.

Your point about the government being panicked by nationalism in Scotland and Wales is an interesting one. I agree this did influence gov policy. But, at the same time, it is logical for it to do so. The support for the SNP and for Plaid does imply that people did want more power to go to the 'national level' for Scotland and Wales. And, the referendum in Scotland showed this. The referendum in Wales, of course, was a closer-run thing and, as you indicate, showed that South Wales wasn't that keen on the idea.

Chris Abbott said...

The 1707 Act of Union stated that Britain would be governed by one parliament. What were New Labour playing at when they interefered with the constitution so radically? The people of England were not consulted about devolution, until the North East voted 78% against regionalisation.

I am sorry to sound emotive, but the issues are of far more concern than you seem to think - recent polls prove this. I have no wish to be rude, but you do (to my mind)come across as being a little smug, cold and illogical at times.

England the largest UK nation, is persistently short changed by an elitist government. And the apathy of the electorate in England, fed a diet of spin and what the likes of the BBC feels it should know, is alarming.

Vino S said...

Hi Chris,

Maybe I do come across as you describe - but I am only saying things as I see them.

You say England is being 'short-changed' by an elitist government. But, if the government is being elitist, then surely it would be short-changing the ordinary people - wherever they lived?

Additionally, why I think that the UK Parliament has the potential to execute the functions that you would prefer an English Parliament to exercise is because the House of Commons is 85% made up of MPs from England. As I said earlier, no bill can become law unless at least 250 or so English MPs back it.

Miguel said...

In Spain, Catalonia and the Basque country have more autonomy than other provinces of Spain. The Spanish Constitution enshrines the right of provinces to ask for and negotiate autonomy with the Centre – if they wish. Due to their history and to the existence of indigenous nationalist movements, Catalonia and the Basque country have done so. Other provinces have not felt the need to do so.

You get this dangerously wrong.

The Spanish Constitution did give Catalonia and the Basque Country (among others) a fraster track to autonomy, but it allowed all the provinces of Spain to achieve Autonomy. The drafters of the constitution probably intended and expected something not unlike the UK system: a few peripheral regions and the majority of the country under the central administration. But Andalusia managed to fast-track its own autonomy by going through a referendum, and within 5 years of that the country had been carved into 17 autonomous communities. The Basque Country and Catalonia may have more competences that other regions, but Navarra, Galicia, Andalusia and the Islands also enjoy greater levels of autonomy. And the degree of devolution keeps increasing gradually. See, for instance, here

Miguel said...

Oh, and the reason Catalonia and the Basque Country were given a fast track to autonomy is because they were granted devolved parliaments in the 1930's by the Second Spanish Republic. So, in their case it was more of a restoration than anything else.

Vino S said...

Thanks for your post, Miguel. I was not sure about the autonomies the other provinces had - but I was aware that Catalonia and the Basque country had more. Is what you are saying that (say) Catalan devolution is more like Scottish devolution and devolution to most of the other provinces is more like Welsh devolution [i.e. less powers are transferred]?

Miguel said...

Vino S said...I was not sure about the autonomies the other provinces had - but I was aware that Catalonia and the Basque country had more. Is what you are saying that (say) Catalan devolution is more like Scottish devolution and devolution to most of the other provinces is more like Welsh devolution [i.e. less powers are transferred]?

I am not an expert on the similarities and differences between the various Autonomy Statutes. What I can say is that any differences are contingent as the Constitution doesn't name any community explicitly when listing the competences. That is, differences in competences can be justified on historical grounds in the "whereases" of the respective laws, but at the end of the day there's no difference in principle.

See Wikisource: Spanish Constitution of 1978: Part III, especiall Sections 148 and 149. Also the Additional and Temporary Provisions which says things like:

The Constitution protects and respects the historic rights of the territories with traditional charts (fueros). The general updating of historic rights shall be carried out, where appropriate, within the framework of the Constitution and of the Statutes of Autonomy.

The extent to which some Regions are mentioned explicitly is limited to:
Any change in the financial and tax system of the Canary Islands shall require a previous report from the Self-governing Community or, as the case may be, from the provisional self-government body.

...



...

In the case of Navarra, and for the purpose of its integration into the General Basque Council or into the autonomous Basque institutions which may replace it, the procedure contemplated by section 143 of this Constitution shall not apply. The initiative shall lie instead with the appropriate historic institution (órgano foral), whose decision must be taken by the majority of its members. The initiative shall further require for its validity the ratification by a referendum expressly held to this end and approval by the majority of votes validly cast.

...

The cities of Ceuta and Melilla may set themselves up as Self-governing Communities if their respective City Councils so decide in a resolution adopted by the overall majority of their members and if the Cortes Generales so authorize them by an organic act, under section 144.


Catalonia and the Basque Country were "grandfathered in" through the following transitional clauses:
One. In territories with a provisional self-government regime, their higher corporate bodies may, by means of a resolution adopted by the overall majority of their members, assume for themselves the initiative for autonomy which section 143, subsection 2, confers upon the Provincial Councils or corresponding inter-island bodies.

Two. The territories which in the past have, by plebiscite, approved draft Statutes of Autonomy and which at the time of the promulgation of this Constitution, have provisional self-government regimes, may proceed immediately in the manner contemplated in section 148, subsection 2, if agreement to do so is reached by the overall majority of their pre self-government higher corporate bodies, and the Government shall be duly informed. The draft Statutes shall be drawn up in accordance with the provisions of section 151, subsection 2, where so requested by the pre Self-government assembly.

Three. The right to initiate the process towards self-government conferred on local authorities or their members, provided in section 143, subsection 2, shall be postponed for all purposes until the first local elections have taken place, once the Constitution has come into force.


I hope that helps.

Anonymous said...

Vino S said...
Anonymous, talk of a police state I see as overblown. If people think our current situation where, yes, we have lost civil
liberties is akin to a police state then they obviously haven't actually lived in one!
If people think our current situation where, yes, we have lost civil
liberties is akin to a police state then they obviously haven't actually lived in one!
Vino s stated:

"Well, it seems my post has provoked some rather heated comment. [There has been] talk of a 'fascist' New Labour 'police state'!"

and (his subsequent opinion that) "...talk of a police state [is] overblown.

"Overblown" Vino S?


According to the Reader's digest Oxford complete wordfinder(1994) a "Police state" is:
a totalitarian state controlled by
political police SUPERVISING the citizen's activities" (P.1175)
Totalitarian (adj): "relating to a centralised dictatorial form of government
requiring complete subservience to the state"
(n)a person advocating such a system."

Are you saying that the English people are not "supervised" by political (Politically correct) police Vino S?
In that case, why were two young girls
charged with criminal damage for making chalk drawings on a pavement Vino S?
Why was a kid from Kent England arrested for throwing a cream bun at a bus Vino S?
Why was a man from Cheshire England cautioned by police for being "found in possession of an egg with intent to throw" Vino S?

Do you think you can have the decency to reply to these questions this time Vino S?

Are you saying that there is not a centralised government in England Vino S? Well? Are you saying there is or not?

Another thing Vino S, all these websites and people posting on them are wrong? Right Vino S? No, they are not incorrect Vino S!
http://prorev.com/2007/07/british-police-state.htm
http://www.policestateplanning.com/british_constitution.htm
http://pressesc.com/01181960826_uk_police_state
http://gizmonaut.net/bits/police_state.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1400584,00.html
http://infowars.net/articles/april2006/170406watching.htm


(Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000).

(Section 110 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005)
It allows the Police to take DNA, fingerprints and palm prints of all those arrested.

Omnipresent surveillance. Britain reportedly has 4.2 million public cameras, 20% of the world's CCTV

Taking pictures, filming or even just drawing sketches of buildings is now often considered ‘hostile reconnaissance’ and
risks you being stopped and searched, or even arrested.

Saying or wearing the wrong words may get you arrested. The Encouragement of Terrorism section
of the Terrorism Act 2006 is so broad that it is likely to be an incursion on free speech.

Under the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order 2006 the Treasury can freeze the assets of whoever they designate.
They do not have to give any hard evidence. They can do so in secrecy. And they are above the law

There have been 60 Home Office bills in 10 years resulting in over 3,000 new offences. The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 - this Bill was
‘the 52nd Home Office Bill since the Government came to power in 1997’. (From 1997 to 2006, each year has seen an average of 2,685 new laws
– a 22% increase from the average over the previous 10 years.)

The UK is ranked the 23rd most democratic country and the 25th least surveilled one (worst ranking EU country).


The Home Office, the Metropolitan Police and the Department of Health secretly established in October 2006, the London based Fixated
Threat Assessment Centre (FTAC) staffed by police and psychiatrists; they have the power to detain suspects indefinitely using mental health laws.

On 24 may 2007, the Secretary of State for the Home Department states that he is considering derogating from article 5
of the European Convention on Human Rights, which requires declaring a state of emergency.

On 1 june 2007, the Palace of Westminster and Portcullis House Site will be added to the sites
designated under Section 128 (offence of trespassing on designated site) of the SOCPA. Come June 2007,
attending an event in a Committee Room or meeting your MP in Portcullis House can land in you in jail for up to 51 weeks.

On 27 may 2007, the Home Office reveals it is examining a proposal to give powers to the police to stop and question people.
People refusing to give their names or explain what they were doing could be charged with obstructing the police and fined up to £5,000.



And Vino S

"If people think our current situation, where, yes, we have lost civil
liberties, is akin to a police state then they obviously haven't actually lived in one!"

Oh come off it. Are you trying to say that if you have not lived in a police state you cannot know what a police state is?
That is a ridiculous comment. I think plenty of people worked out years ago what was happening with regard to England.
Answer this question? Why are there so many cameras in England; but not elsewhere? Why? Just answer the question!


Vino S:

Re polls, I am happy to concede that I am wrong on matters relating to polls and that the English Democrats' are right.
That doesn't change the issue of how people prioritise the issue."

You have contradicted yourself. You've finally admitted that you were wrong about the English wanting an English parliament (after arguing
against it endlessly); then you
say, "That doesn't change the issue of how people prioritise the issue." What you say does not make sense. What are you saying?
Seven out of ten people polled said they wanted an English parliament! So then you state that it isn't a priority. So how come
70% said they wanted an English parliament then? If it wasn't a priority 70% of people polled would not have
said that they wanted an English parliament! A few percent would've said they wanted one. To state that it isn't a priority is ridiculous!

All you're doing is trying to
confuse the issues. Years ago (before the polls were conducted) people like you arrogantly said "there is no interest in an English parliament. We know
we are right. Nobody says they want an English parliament"

Now we have the evidence that the English do want their own
parliament, people like you say, oh but it isnt a priority! (As if you can prove it isn't anyway)

No doubt if a poll on English people's political priorities was held and 70% said that having an English parliament - WAS -
a priority, people like you would come up with some other petty excuse for why SO MANY ENGLISH PEOPLE WANT THEIR OWN PARLIAMENT!

Wino S:

"As I said earlier, in the statement you seem to have wilfully misunderstood, people can say
they favour something without it being a high priority for them. I think the evidence
proving my view is the small amount of support the English Democrats seem to have. They are standing clearly on a pro-English-
devolution platform and people do not seem to be that interested."


Oh well, maybe voting for the English democrats (www.englishdemocrats.org.uk) is not a priority for them...yet! The English
are well-known for their attitudes towards politics.
I am not a member! Nobody cares about England or the lack of our own political representation more than me. What does that say?

Are you saying that if English people cared about an English parliament they would become English democrat voters immediately?
If the two go hand in hand then why did 70% of English people polled say they wanted an English parliament? Maybe they're
waiting for the same sort of referendum that was given to the scottish and welsh and Nirish! Remember that? The English do!
Anyway, are all new labour
voters members of the new labour party then? I think not! Infact, the new labour party membership has nose dived in recent years...
hasn't it? Ha! ha! So does that mean that they don't support the new labour party then? That is what you're trying to say.
Just because the English democrats having taken everything by storm doesn't mean that the English people aren't keen on them. The
English democrats have only been in existence for a few years!
I do not think new labour and their cohorts are above fiddling the elections either. I think this explains the voting patterns of late.
A judge recently termed the new labour fascist state a "banana republic" because of vote fiddling. People were jalied for stealing votes!
I think you people will do
anything to stop the English nation having self-determination!


Vino S:

"By contrast, voters do seem to have an interest in voting for
the SNP and Plaid Cymru - since they often poll 15-20% or more of the votes'

So what are implying? That English people do not have any interest in voting for the English democrats because they
don't really care about having their own parliament? That appears to be your (new) argument. I am glad we forced you into
having a different plan of attack because quite frankly, it got boring, i.e. you going on about your flawed argument.

How many people didn't vote for new labour in scotland and wales...and England recently? Quite a few, no, infact, it was millions!
According to your logic, people must not care about new labour anymore right? This is true. That's why new labour have to
crawl around "celebrities" to get money. What a pathetic bunch they are. Gordon Brown has no right to be PM. He has no right
to be first minister of England! None whatsoever! Isn't it odd. I hear no mention of Gordon Brown hijacking the PM position from you!! How come?
You should be mad about him and Blair dragging your party through the dirt! Why aren't you?

Vino S:

"People also seem to be ignoring my last paragraph where I said that there is no point in devolution unless people demand it."

"There is no point in devolution unless people demand it." 70% POLLED WANT AN ENGLISH PARLIAMENT! Ha! ha! IS THAT DEMAND ENOUGH FOR YOU? HA! HA!
By the way, how many people "demanded" devolution in wales and scotland? Was it 70%? No!
Maybe there was reason why your last paragraph was being ignored! Ha! ha! Maybe people viewed it as children's fiction!

Wino S:

"Surely, the way to prove it would be if people were voting for the English Democrats - if the WLQ was important to them?"

Oh are you also saying that the west lothian question IS NOT important to English people because they don't vote
en masse for the English democrats? HA! HA! HA! HA! Oh so you dont think that the West Lothian Question has contributed to
70% of English people wanting an English parliament then? Ha! ha! So what has made the English people stand up and scream then?

Oh let me get this straight. It is just a coincidence that since new labour got into power, English people have swapped the union rag for their own
Saint George cross flag and
English people have organised themselves more and more into a coherant unit to fight new labour, the bbc, cre, fabians and other anti-English
organisations? No doubt it is just a coincidence that new labour got into power in 1997 to ah?
No it is not a coincidence!
Your argument is flawed...again!

Vino S:

"You say England is being 'short-changed' by an elitist government. But, if the government is being elitist,
then surely it would be short-changing the ordinary people - wherever they lived?"


What are you stating now? Nothing!
It is well-known that the people living in England are getting less per head spent othem than are
people in scotland and wales! That is common knowledge. Not only are the people in England getting less spent on them they are also
having to pay for the scotch and welch to live it up. They're being discriminated against twice over. Actually, it's several times over
when you take into account the way new labour treats them. Lack of funding for cancer drugs! Lack of adequate heating for the frail and vulnerable
elderly! Their children forced to learn other people's history! Their children picked on by a fascist p.c. police force. Their history constantly
attacked! Their pensions stolen by Gordon Brown AND Tony Blair! Their parliament attacked and degraded by the behaviour of anti-English elements.

Vino S:

"Additionally, I think that the UK Parliament has the potential to execute the functions that
you would prefer an English Parliament to exercise because the House of Commons is 85% made up of MPs
from England."

"The potential"? What?
M.P.'s from England? How many are English? I am talking about English people; not those who are born in England but go on
about how they are half this, half that. You are just trying to make it sound like English mp's have the power in the UK parliament.
Answer me this then. How were foundation hospitals in England forced through? Tell us what happened with that particular fiasco?



Vino S:

"As I said earlier, no bill can become law unless at least 250 or so English MPs back it"

Talk about foundation hospitals! Go on, do it!
Many new labour mp's are not English! Clarify what you mean by "English mp's"!
What can Gordon Brown vote on in scotland? Go on, tell us!

Anonymous said...

manual trackback

cam

Vino S said...

I see anonymous has once again started a bit of a rant. With regard to all his rhetorical questions, I suspect that criminal damage is an offence under any legal system. He also ought to check whether any of the cases he brings up actually resulted in a convinction. As in any society with the rule of law, the courts do not automatically convict and the CPS do not prosecute everyone arrested or questioned by the police.

I also see you have avoided answering the point about 250 (approx 45%) of all MP's in England being needed to pass a bill -- the most significant difference btween Scotland's situation pre-1998 and England's now.

Terry said...

Vino, I believe you are saying…
1. There is no real demand for an English Parliament because the English Democrats attract few votes
2. There is no need for an English Parliament because English MPs have 85% of the votes in the House.

With regard to “1”…

this is what happens when a pressure group attempts to form a political party. The SNP and Plaid Cymru have historically returned very few MPs to Westminster. The Greens formed a party in the 80s and have attracted few votes since, even though many were concerned with green issues. This is because they were too narrow. What did they think about immigration, tax, foreign policy, the NHS etc? The answer was “nothing”, because they were a single issue pressure group dressed up as a political party.

The successes by SNP and PC in the recent national elections were augmented because they were seen as the alternative to Labour. Dissatisfied votes went to the nationalists, rather than to the Conservatives or Lib Dem.

When people vote, their vote is based upon a wide range of issues and, more often than not, tradition. People in England ARE demanding their own Parliament (me included), that is demonstrably evident. Many (me included again) would not vote for any party on a single issue though.

Only 40-odd percent of the Scottish electorate voted for devolution, despite a massive campaign, including top drawer politicians, urging people to vote “yes”. In England, nearly 70% want a Parliament (Blair admits the same) and this is despite the fact that no newspaper, or political party has campaigned for it. Imagine if we had TV adverts, a promo video sent to every household, party leaders urging the people on… it’d be a massive majority.

No independent political observer can say, hand on heart, that there is no demand for an English Parliament…no one!

With regard to “2”…

MPs don’t vote on national lines, they vote on party lines. They can rebel, but it is a very dangerous thing to do and turkeys tend not to vote for Christmas.

There have been cases where they have voted in their constituents’ interests, such as Foundation Hospitals and Tuition Fees, but the legislation was carried by MPs whose constituents were not affected by the legislation (shame on them!). This is a scandal!

You also ignore executive powers, where Ministers decide the English should not have the same rights as the Scots (eg Darling and Sunday shopping: Falconer and an EP).
You also ignore the fact that the agenda is controlled by a cabinet (and unelected PM) who were not elected by the people their legislation affects. This is true in the case of Health, Education, Housing, Sport and Arts, Agriculture, Forestry & Fishing, Emergency Services, Planning, Social Work, Heritage, Transport and Tourism.

If you object to an EP because of political expediency, then admit it, but please don’t pee on my foot and tell me it’s raining.

Vino S said...

Terry,

Thanks for your comments. A couple of points:

Re the issue of demand, an arithmatical majority of those who voted favoured devolution in Scotland in 1979. Even so, it took until 1998 when it was seen as the 'settled will' of the Scottish people for it to happen. I am not saying there should never be an English parliament; I am saying it should happen (a) once it becomes a major issue and (b) when it is clear that any other forms of devolution, like a Cornish Assembly or Yorkshire autonomy etc are not favoured.

Regarding the idea of an 'unelected' PM (an idea which I find strange). People elect candidates from a party to parliament. The PM is simply the person who commands the majority support of the Commons. People voted for Labour in 2005 - only his own constituency voted for Tony Blair. As such, i see no lesser or greater legitimacy for Gordon Brown than for anyone else to be PM

Terry said...

Hi Vino

You said “…those who voted favoured devolution in Scotland in 1979. Even so, it took until 1998 when it was seen as the 'settled will' of the Scottish people for it to happen.”

In ’79, there was a condition that there had to be a majority of the electorate (not votes cast) in favour of devolution. If the same rules applied in ’98, we would have the same result. In England we only have polls to show the settled will of the English (because we’ve not had one referendum) and they show overwhelming favour for an English Parliament.

You also say “I am not saying there should never be an English parliament; I am saying it should happen (a) once it becomes a major issue and (b) when it is clear that any other forms of devolution, like a Cornish Assembly or Yorkshire autonomy etc are not favoured.”

A) it is a major issue. It is a constitutional crisis.

B) No. This is putting the cart before the horse. No one asked if the Shetlands (think how much oil would belong to them) wanted to break away from Scotland before considering the SP. If England needs further devolution after the establishment of an EP, then that is a question for the English Parliament and for them alone. England is the oldest nation state in Europe and its borders are easily identifiable. To talk of Cornish or Yorkshire independence is a spurious, disingenuous red herring.

I apologise for saying “unelected”, I was using emotive and inaccurate language. What I should have said is “democratically unaccountable”.

Brown is not accountable to any electorate – Scottish or English – over vast swathes of government policy.

Labour in 1997 used “education, education, education” and “48 hours left to save the NHS” as the main points of their manifesto and the electorate returned them with a clear mandate on these issues. Brown is not accountable to ANY voter for either of the above. He will never be challenged by his constituents on the door step nor at any political hustings in his constituency.

We are not asking for special consideration, we are asking to be treated the same way as the other nations in the Union. To deny us these basic democratic rights threatens the Union itself, which I suspect may be the intention of some.

Vino S said...

I think the 1979 referendum had a 40% not a 50% threshold . The point I was making was that devolution kept being an issue for 20yrs after that. That is what I meant by saying it became the settled will of the people.

With regard to regionalism, I don't think it would be right to write off the demands for autonomy of groups like Mebyon Kernow if they have sufficient support . I don't think they do, but that's by and by.

Terry said...

Vino would you mind telling me if you have an alternative agenda in your opposition to an EP?

Are you a Labour supporter that's worried by an EP? If so, you shouldn't be because Labour would have won the last three elections (given the same constituencies and FPTP).

You want to consider the demands for regionalism (78% against it in the region that the Govt thought would find it most favourable) but not the demands for an EP (despite a similar number being in favour).

Vino S said...

Yes, Terry, I am a Labour supporter - as is clear from the other posts on my blog. And I do know that Labour won more seats than any other party at the last 3 general elections in England as well as in the UK as a whole. That is why I have been pointing out that no piece of legislation can be passed without c. 250 MPs from English constituencies voting for it. Yes, an English parliament might be dominated by the Consevatives (in a bad year for Labour). But that is not the reason why I oppose it. After all, Surrey County Council is controlled by Tories, for example, but I don't oppose the existence of the county council.

You say I have a hidden agenda. I don't think there is a hidden agenda. All I am saying is that I don't think there is demand for it - and you are saying there is. And I am also saying that people do not evaluate it as one of their major issues when asked by pollsters. There is no way of resolving our difference of opinion other than by seeing what the result of any referendum is.

Terry said...

Hi Vino, you do need 250 English MPs to pass any legislation, but they still vote on Party lines and the whips tow the cabinet line. That's not the end of the story though, the cabinet also have executive powers and control the Parliamentary agenda. The English do have a democratic deficit.

As far as Labour winning the last three elections, don’t take my word for it, look here…

http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/ge05/seats.htm

This is the 2005 results where the Tories polled more votes (58,000) than Labour in England, but won more seats. This is because of turnout being low in safe Labour seats and because lots of previous Labour votes went to Respect).

As far as demand being low for regionalism and high for an EP, you can look here…

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/polls/2006/ecc.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6264823.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/26/nunion26.xml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm

If you’re saying that you want a referendum on the matter, then we agree with each other. That’s all I’m asking for. If the result is “no”, I’ll bow to the majority. The scandal IMHO is that we’ve never been asked.